Talk:Subtitles
From SitaSingsTheBlues
[edit] Transcribing and translating copyrighted song lyrics
Sorry, I'm afraid I have a question.
If some of the songs are copyrighted, I guess that translating their lyrics in the subtitles would be copyright infringement, unless this right has already been cleared. (I'm afraid that even transcribing the lyrics would be infringement if that right hasn't been secured.)
Can anyone confirm this?
Thanks,
Ousia 18:53, 11 March 2009 (UTC)
It should be okay to translate the songs. I have now placed a statement on the top of the Subtitles page talking about this in more detail; see there. Kfogel 22:41, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
Leaving the rest of the conversation below for context, but see answer above:
- Good point. Perhaps that is why the songs weren't translated in Russian. 70.24.140.165 15:53, 12 March 2009 (UTC)
- Transcription itself might be infringing, since it may well constitute unauthorized copying. Ousia 19:27, 12 March 2009 (UTC)
- I don't really think anyone could make that case -- The songs have been allowed free use within the context of the movie, and translating into different languages solely for the purpose of use as subtitles seems well within these parameters. Hopefully someone with the legalese can provide us some further insight, but it seems like a stretch to think there would be any real issue with this.Drakar
- I might be oversensitive with this issue, but as stated in many places of this site (wiki or not):
- As required by the respective copyright holders, these licenses only allow you to listen to these songs in the context of the original film.
- It depends on the contract terms, but from the previous quote, it seems that neither transcription nor translation are allowed activities for the songs with restrictive licenses. Please, clarify this.
- I'm working on the Spanish subtitles (all songs translated), but this must be cleared before posting them. Ousia 19:27, 14 March 2009 (UTC)
- I've asked the question on the FAQ. Esn 10:03, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
- We're asking lawyers, thanks for raising this... If the answer turns out to be No, then I suggest all song lyrics be replaced with the text "[Song subtitles censored by monopolists; see questioncopyright.org/sita_subtitles for more information.]" :-( We'll prepare that page if the need arises. Kfogel 21:08, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
- I wonder what would happen if it were to turn out that the lyrics were already translated in another language, and that those translations are in the public domain. This is hypothetical, of course. Esn 00:11, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
- AFAIK, translations cannot be in the public domain if the original work is still copyrighted. Translations and original works enjoy the same protection term and since translations are usually released later than the original work, translations are in copyright even when the original work is in the public domain (think of Plato, the Greek philosopher: the original Greek text is in the public domain, but translations might be copyrighted). Ousia 23:34, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
- Ousia, if you're right, then the reason the translation would be copyrighted may be because the translatOR has copyright bearings on it. If you are the translator, then you will obviously choose to (or not to) do so. I'm not arguing that this is the law per se, but I believe it follows logically. Drakar2007
- Drakar2007, I'm not sure I understand your question. As creative works, translations are copyrighted on their own, but as derivative works, they depend on the copyright status of the original work. Everyone is free to publish a new translation of any work in the public domain, given than the translation is authored by him- or herself. But one must ask for permission before releasing a translation of a copyrighted work, since the copyright holder of the original work has the right to block the release of the derivative work until it doesn't belong to the public domain. Translators may choose whether to copyright a translation or not, but if the original work is copyrighted, they must seek permission from the original rights holder first. Otherwise, one can be liable for copyright infringement, whose damages in the US are statutory and might be up to US$ 150000 per willful infringement (and up to US$ 30000 in non-willful infringements). I hope it is clear now. Ousia 12:30, 19 March 2009 (UTC)
- Ooh, we'll all be felons. How exciting! :) Also, those lyrics and songs are stored in my memory, allowing me the possibility of mentally replaying them anytime I choose, even though I only paid once. They should really get to work on brain-scanning software (building on the latest research) that scans for copyright-infringing material in brainwaves, and systematically removes it, with steep fines for the particularly egregious or unlucky offenders (the ones with rich imaginations and good memories!). The memory of a good time can be left in, however. Profits will go through the roof! :p Esn 07:25, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
- Copyright law is broken (and BTW, DRM won't fix it). This is not a way of saying. Originally copyright covered “publishing”, but right now copyright covers “copying” (at least in the US). So crazy or stupid it might sound, this is law. And until we change it, it won't be different. Ousia 23:07, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
- Sorry Ouisa - I know what you're saying but the matter is not really any clearer. I think this can still be boiled down to the basic points: A) you aren't releasing a "translation of a copyrighted work", you're releasing a translation of someone else's transcription of it. B) it STILL falls under the umbrella of the songs being licensed "in the context of the film" - and if one argues that the words "listened to..." circumvent this because subtitles are read and not heard, well -- you're not READING the songs themselves anymore, you're reading the translation of a transcription of some words heard in the movie. Any way you look at it (assuming a resonable and/or common-sense approach), you're covered. I wish I could get a copy of your translation already so i can add it to my "unofficial" dvd version ;-) Drakar2007 18:50 EDT 2009-03-21
- Drakar, AFAIK the issue can only be clarified reading the contract. Copyright law prevents derivative works to be released without the permission of the copyright holder. For your point A: the subtitles are a translation of a copyrighted work, being a translation of a transcription, since song lyrics are copyrighted works as well. And for your point B: common-sense or reasonableness has nothing to do with copyright law. Ousia 23:17, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
- Just to clarify the situation: the subtitles are also under a Creative Commons Share-Alike license, because the original work (Nina's script) is under that license, and the license specifies that it applies to derivative works. The exception is the song lyrics, which existed before this film -- we have asked our lawyers about them, but as it's a complicated question, it is taking some time to answer. We will post here as soon as we know!
- Karl, thanks for the reply. Sorry for being too impatient. I know that only some songs and their lyrics are under standard copyright terms (“All rights reserved”), but I named that part as the whole (my fault again). Ousia 16:58, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
- Just to clarify the situation: the subtitles are also under a Creative Commons Share-Alike license, because the original work (Nina's script) is under that license, and the license specifies that it applies to derivative works. The exception is the song lyrics, which existed before this film -- we have asked our lawyers about them, but as it's a complicated question, it is taking some time to answer. We will post here as soon as we know!
- Drakar, AFAIK the issue can only be clarified reading the contract. Copyright law prevents derivative works to be released without the permission of the copyright holder. For your point A: the subtitles are a translation of a copyrighted work, being a translation of a transcription, since song lyrics are copyrighted works as well. And for your point B: common-sense or reasonableness has nothing to do with copyright law. Ousia 23:17, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
- Ooh, we'll all be felons. How exciting! :) Also, those lyrics and songs are stored in my memory, allowing me the possibility of mentally replaying them anytime I choose, even though I only paid once. They should really get to work on brain-scanning software (building on the latest research) that scans for copyright-infringing material in brainwaves, and systematically removes it, with steep fines for the particularly egregious or unlucky offenders (the ones with rich imaginations and good memories!). The memory of a good time can be left in, however. Profits will go through the roof! :p Esn 07:25, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
- Drakar2007, I'm not sure I understand your question. As creative works, translations are copyrighted on their own, but as derivative works, they depend on the copyright status of the original work. Everyone is free to publish a new translation of any work in the public domain, given than the translation is authored by him- or herself. But one must ask for permission before releasing a translation of a copyrighted work, since the copyright holder of the original work has the right to block the release of the derivative work until it doesn't belong to the public domain. Translators may choose whether to copyright a translation or not, but if the original work is copyrighted, they must seek permission from the original rights holder first. Otherwise, one can be liable for copyright infringement, whose damages in the US are statutory and might be up to US$ 150000 per willful infringement (and up to US$ 30000 in non-willful infringements). I hope it is clear now. Ousia 12:30, 19 March 2009 (UTC)
- Ousia, if you're right, then the reason the translation would be copyrighted may be because the translatOR has copyright bearings on it. If you are the translator, then you will obviously choose to (or not to) do so. I'm not arguing that this is the law per se, but I believe it follows logically. Drakar2007
- I've asked the question on the FAQ. Esn 10:03, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
- I might be oversensitive with this issue, but as stated in many places of this site (wiki or not):
- I don't really think anyone could make that case -- The songs have been allowed free use within the context of the movie, and translating into different languages solely for the purpose of use as subtitles seems well within these parameters. Hopefully someone with the legalese can provide us some further insight, but it seems like a stretch to think there would be any real issue with this.Drakar
- Transcription itself might be infringing, since it may well constitute unauthorized copying. Ousia 19:27, 12 March 2009 (UTC)
[edit] Including subtitles on DVD
Regarding the question I asked on the FAQ, I would imagine that legally, the authors of the subtitles would have to give permission for their translations to be included on the DVD? I assume that most would agree as long as they are given credit as translators, but of course I can't speak for everyone. I could ask the creator of the Russian subtitles if you wish (by posting on the torrents.ru thread). Esn 23:56, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
- Since subtitles are derived from the original work, all subtitles have to be released under a CC BY-SA license. Ousia 23:34, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
- Thanks for clearing that up. So anyone can share and remix the subtitles also, as long as the authorship of the translations is attributed. Quite a logical way of doing it... Esn 08:34, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
- Oh, I see what the misunderstanding was - I confused the license used for this project with the CC-by-SA attribution non-commercial license; that's the one I'm more used to. Whereas this one does allow commercial use of the work, as long as attribution is made. Esn 08:44, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
[edit] Which movie file goes with the subtitles?
Hello everybody, I have never used movie files other than avi, which can be easily paired up with srt. I am burning to see the film, but I have no idea how to use srt with the formats available for this film. Can you help me out on that?
- As far as I know, the same methods used to pair up the srt with AVI's will work for other formats as well. That is to say, name the .srt file to exactly match the filename of the movie file, and it should be auto-played. If this isn't working for you, can you tell us which player you're using / what method you normally use to display .srt's? Drakar2007
[edit] Where to upload the subtitle files?
It appears that the subtitle files are somewhat all over web. Which would be a good place to put the file, as the file uploading to Wiki seems to be disabled? --Tro 19:51, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
- There doesn't seem to be one "official" place to upload them at the moment -- I have my English version hosted on my personal webserver as well as on my archive.org page -- if you need a place for yours, I could add them to one of these if you e-mail them to me (drakar2007[at]gmail), or you could put them up somewhere public like sendspace. --Drakar2007
- Not Sendspace. I may be wrong, but I believe that they only keep files up for a week (or a few weeks). I uploaded the Russian subtitle file on Mediafire, where it'll stay indefinitely.
- There is one other option that might be a good idea: create articles on this Wiki for each subtitle file and copy+paste the subtitle file straight into its article. Anyone who wishes to use them can then copy+paste the text into a .txt file and rename that .txt file into .srt. (or .ssa, or .sub, depending on the format used). Esn 01:58, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
- You can also send them to us by email. (But it's better to post your subtitles online if you can, so other people can check them, etc.)
- Thanks, I used Mediafire at least for now. --Tro 19:16, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
[edit] Subtitled DVD
Shameless self-promote: would it be possible to have a signed copy of the DVD for the subtitlers? :-) That would be awesome. Please? On discount? --Tro 18:33, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
- I second that ;-) --Drakar2007
- I third that :-) --Ench
- I fourth that! :D --reginazabo
- :-) Me too (Daniel of the Hungarian subtitle who was too lazy even to register)
I'm going to buy a DVD, but I'm rather disappointed that Nina didn't answer to this. It would have been nice if the credits in the web page had been at least updated with the translators' names... reginazabo
- Hi everyone, sorry for not responding earlier. I just didn't see this section until now (thanks reginazabo for sending an email pointing it). Here's what I'd like to do: any subtitler who sends a pre-addressed, postage-prepaid envelope to Nina (use this address) will receive a free, signed DVD. That is, the discount is 100%, we just need your help with the shipping logistics, otherwise the packaging and addressing and everything would be quite overwhelming on our end. She does appreciate the subtitling and I know she's very happy to sign the DVDs. Kfogel 03:47, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
- Responding to reginazabo's comment above: do you meant http://sitasingstheblues.com/credits.html? I agree, there could be a subtitler's section there. But we don't know the real names of all our subtitlers, and we don't have photographs of them or know their home pages (that is, if they even want to be linked to). So if you're a subtitler and you want to be on that credits page, please leave a comment here pointing to that information. That way we'll know how to list you. Kfogel 03:47, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
- Hi, Kfogel, and thanks for your answer :) The problem is I live in Italy and probably other subtitlers don't live in the States either. Do you think we can just send the pre-addressed envelope and then we pay the postage when the mail comes in? reginazabo
- As regards the credits, yes, I meant http://sitasingstheblues.com/credits.html? Actually, I'd rather be quoted with my nickname and perhaps a link to my blog (as a voluntary translator I always sign my works just with my nick). I can give you an image midway between a photo and a stencil, but I always avoid to post my real-life pictures. Do you think you can quote us anyway? Thanks a lot! reginazabo
[edit] Russian Subtitle Problems
Moved from main subtitle page, as a thread under the russian subtitle post:
- Can someone double-check the .srt file posted? It may be something I did wrong, but the file does not appear to contain russian characters/writing, no matter how I view it. And FWIW, russian writing generally appears correctly on my system... --Drakar2007
- Here's how it looks in "Subtitle Workshop": [1]. It also works fine for me if I open it in Firefox. It does NOT look right if I open it in Notepad, which is strange. I'm not quite sure why that is. It would be a good idea to make sure that it looks right before finalizing the DVD. Esn 09:03, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
- Weird... I just re-downloaded it fresh from the download link above and opened it straight away in subtitle workshop, and it looked just like it looks when I open it in notepad or when I try to view it as subtitles [2]... --Drakar2007
- Right... look at the difference between my screenshot and yours. Notice how on the left, you have it set to "ANSI" while I have it set to "Cyrillic"? (P.S. I recommend saving screenshots as GIFs; it takes up less space and looks much cleaner) Esn 02:09, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
- EDIT: I figured out the problem. I have managed to make a SRT version saved in UTF8 unicode format, which seems to display properly for me when watching the video, as well as opening properly in notepad. I've put it on my webserver. --Drakar2007
- Right... look at the difference between my screenshot and yours. Notice how on the left, you have it set to "ANSI" while I have it set to "Cyrillic"? (P.S. I recommend saving screenshots as GIFs; it takes up less space and looks much cleaner) Esn 02:09, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
- Weird... I just re-downloaded it fresh from the download link above and opened it straight away in subtitle workshop, and it looked just like it looks when I open it in notepad or when I try to view it as subtitles [2]... --Drakar2007
- Here's how it looks in "Subtitle Workshop": [1]. It also works fine for me if I open it in Firefox. It does NOT look right if I open it in Notepad, which is strange. I'm not quite sure why that is. It would be a good idea to make sure that it looks right before finalizing the DVD. Esn 09:03, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
[edit] Subtitles completed after initial DVD creation
Oh no! I only just now (2009-05-01) found out about this subtitling project for this great movie. I have access to translators who would like to do subtitles in a language not yet covered (Japanese). What hope is there for some subsequent DVD for late-comer additions like extra subtitles? -- BenFinney 2009-05-01
[edit] Thank You!
Having done subtitles and DVD Authoring syncs before I know that generating a proper .srt file can be a time consuming process with an incredible attention to detail. So I wanted to say a HUGE thank you to all the people working on this project and keep up the great work! --Gregdemetrick
[edit] hm. amazing.
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[edit] mm.. funny
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[edit] mm. cognitively
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[edit] Lyrics of "Agni Pariksha" (Sita's Fire) in Hindi?
Hi everyone! I was absolutely fascinated by the song "Agni Pariksha" in the movie and was wondering if there's any chance of finding the lyrics in Hindi? There's lyrics in English on Todd Michaelsen's site but it would be great to see the original text. Natabka
![[1]](http://g.imagehost.org/0882/sitaRUsubs.gif){kind=link}